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Caloroga Shark Media. Why there, Johnny macn no News Today. Today we celebrate the life of Mitchell Lee Hedburg. He passed away March thirtieth, two thousand and five, at age thirty seven. It’s hard to believe it has been twenty years.
Born in Minnesota, but finding his comedy voice in Florida clubs, Mitch Hedburg became a cult hero after his nineteen ninety six appearance on Letterman. If you’ve ever seen a broken escalator and thought temporarily stares, you’re keeping the spirit of Mitch Hedburg alive. I know personally my daughter will offer me frozen bananas regularly, just to tee up the joke. If I walk past a particular sandwich chain, I will say, did you know that ducks eat for free at subway? If I’m at a soda machine and they’re selling mister pib, I will take a picture of it and text it to friends and say, dude didn’t get his degree.
Mitch Heedburgh’s deadpan delivery, sunglasses, hiding his stage fright, his unmistakable cadence made him instant recognizable in New York comedy clubs and on tours across the country. Mitch passed away twenty years ago in Livingston, New Jersey, not too far from where I live. Today, Let’s celebrate the life and the career of Mitch Hebburg. My guest is Jason Zenneman from The New York Times. You guys know Jason, friend of the show and listener of the show.
Jason is a critic at large for the Culture section of the New York Times. He writes a column about comedy. You’ll hear me reference Jason probably three times a week on the podcast He is Fantastic. Two sections here. The first part is about Hebburg.
Then while I had Jason, I wanted to discuss some other comedy things. We recorded this on Wednesdays, so we didn’t talk about Taylor Tomlinson for example. That happened after we didn’t talk about milleniy episode three. So I just want to put that in context. Anyway, here’s friend of the show, Jason Zinneman.
So what was your entry into Mitch Hepburg. Did you discover him? Later? Did discover him? Like ten years ago there was kind of a head burgess sans with people quoting him on Twitter.
Where did you come into Mitch? This is embarrassing. Actually, I’m even I don’t want it. You started with the tough question, which leads me to an embarrassing confession, But I’m gonna make it because I think it illuminates something critical about Mitch Hedburg, which is I just found an email where I was talking to a friend only a little before I got the job as the comedy critic. So this is like twenty ten something like that.
So after he passed away where he mentioned Mitch Hepburgh and I said, oh, who’s that? So that’s embarrassing that I got this job without knowing who Mitch. I shouldn’t you shouldn’t hire me as they because I have now steeped in Mitch Heedburg. But I think what it also reveals, outside of my lack of qualifications, is that Mitch Hedburg was not that well known among non comedy obsessives, and there were many more popular comedians than Mitch Heedburg when he died. And it’s also a great reminder that popularity isn’t that important.
The people who are really have a lot of followers and a really big deal. Right now, the media thinks we have to pay attention to all of them. We don’t We Uh, there’s Mitch Hedberg is more well known now than he was when he died. And the reason is the same reason where great art is always that is one of the metrics for success is how you age what happens over time. Like there are a lot of people who are very popular right now who no one’s gonna care about after they die or you know, ten years after their work.
A lot of them, right. And there’s going to be some people who are, you know, not that popular, don’t have Netflix specials, who are gonna be like Mitch Hedberg where it’s going to be. Of course, you’re gonna know whom Mitch Hedberg is. And I think he was a person who the comedy cognizante knew who he was. Clearly I should have, but I didn’t.
And but when he died, but he did. He wasn’t like a massive star. And certainly, if you compare him to the person he’s always compared to in terms of influence, Stephen Wright, he didn’t have the mainstream breakthrough that Stephen Wright did. I think you can say they’re similar to Andy Kaufman, who has gotten more and more famous after he’s died. I think it’s fair to say he’s one of the most important and influential.
I think Mitch Hedbury Andy Kaufman are two of the most influential comedians in modern times, and neither of them were you know, top five ted Echelon in there in popularity in their time. I think you’re right. My audience will be sick of me telling the story. But real quick, I was at the car show, Jim brew was doing his radio show. Jim was a little frosty because the night before Jim had to do an extra hour because Mitch didn’t show up for a show.
I believe that was Mitch supposed to be opening for Jim Brewer in two thousand and five, which you know, if you say to somebody now like, oh yeah, Heedberg was opening for Jim Brewer, people like, what what are you talking about? But I think that’s a spot where Mitch was at and you talking about maybe you weren’t famili with him. I’m trying to remember. I think I have a false memory of meeting Mitch. I think Mitch was up and did Brewers show, and I can kind of sort of remember being in the back, but I don’t have a clear memory of meeting the guy because back when I was doing serious comedy, people came up every day, So you know, I don’t remember every time I met somebody I think I’m aligned with you there that Yeah, maybe he wasn’t as famous as the legacy.
So is this a James Dean thing? And I’ve talked about this with some other people. If is Hegberg still doing one liners twenty years later? Does that translate in the age of social media and feeding the Beast? And I got to go on TikTok, I know, and I’ll stop talking in a second.
I think in the Instagram era his stuff really popped ten years ago. You throw up a one miner, you make a cartoon of it, it was great. I’m not sure in the current Feed the Beast crowd work, Feed the Beast crowd work. I’m struggling a picture of Mitch Hedberg twenty five. I mean, maybe I’m naive, but I think he’d be doing well.
I think he’s just too talented, he’s too o rige. It’s interesting. Chat TV came out and there was a lot of discourse about can it replace comedy. One of the first comedians that AI nerds fed into AI models was Mitch Hedberg. And I was sent a lot of oh, look, hey, this AI can reproduce what Mitch Hedberg did, and I would listen to it and I would say, no, this can’t.
This is actually you think this is an argument fore I, And it’s the opposite. He’s that good, so I mean it’s academic kudos. It is like James Dean to some degree.
And then I think the legend of him grew because he died at what thirty seven?
Anybody who dies in their thirties there’s a certain glow about them that like a long career where you see them age and you know and us are fast. I mean Stephen Wright again is a good comparison. I think he’s had a fascinating career, but we’ve sort of forgotten a little bit. He was someone who I was into as a kid, and it was radical when I first lost he was a radical figure and I don’t think maybe people grasp that when they see him today. You know, Stephen again one of those comedians much like a Kinnison, much like a Dice.
The first time you saw me, you’re like, wow, this is different. And as I’ve been prepping for these interviews this week and thinking about right I don’t want use the word verses, but Right and Heedburg. I feel like Right performs material to the audience, whereas Hebburg was in it with us, especially because he would do busted jokes and be like, you know, hey, I got to punch that here. That didn’t work, and you know, it would just be like, okay, all right, yeah it didn’t work. You’re right, buddy, but I got your back, whereas I feel like Steven is just doing his thing on a stage, almost like a one man show.
This is actually one of my favorite subjects, which is it’s a real comedy nerd question, what’s the difference between Stephen Wright and Mitch Hedberg? And I’ve asked a lot of comedians because of course they’re, you know, very influential, both of them, and I looked them up a Bobcat golfway, as told he said, when you watch Mitch, you learned who he was, and you got you had some speculation over like who’s this guy voted for? Was his childhood with Stephen Wright? He did not let you in. I think you’re absolutely right, by the way about the performed material versus Jessel Nick, who was a huge, huge, right, you know, right was a huge influence on him.
He said to me, I think they’re compared to each other because they both told absurd, non secretars. Mitch Hedberg had the appearance of mentally fumbling around on stage looking for his jokes and figuring out as he went along. Right was deliberate, the sort of goes to what you’re saying. He was serious, He was not fucking around. Mitch just walked on stage from a party.
And of course he’s not using it as an insult. He’s saying that was the vibe he gave. Right just walked on stage from another planet. I think that I think that’s a pretty good explanation. But maybe if you’re just looking at it from a legacy standpoint, and this is gonna sound cold, but dying was a good career move because because.
You look at young comics. I mean, there’s a lot of comics I follow on substack who are often analyzing mulling over philosophizing about Mitch Hedberg. The one I want to shout out because I think it is a comic that your listener should also look up is Mike Kaplan, who has a great substack. He’s a huge Hedburg fan and he recently had a substack about him and he said this. He said, his jokes are songs infinitely re listenable, where so much comedy requires surprise to have his desired effect.
Hedberg’s has somehow transcended that. That is fascinating, and I think he’s right. You can listen to you know, an elevator can never break. It just turns into stairs, and even if you’ve heard it before, there’s still a pleasure in hearing it again. They are more like songs, and that’s very high praise, because once you take the surprise out of comedy, you take quite a bit out of it.
I think, you know what Mike does his sub sact is then he goes on to analyze some jokes. It looks at the philosophy of them. They actually have a depth to them, especially in how they kind of mix. And this is in part I’m influenced by Mike’s writing on this, like the ordinary and the metaphysical in a way that rewards sustained analysis and thinking. I never thought of that that it’s it is like music that I don’t mind listening to the stuff over and over and part of the production.
I think it’s strategic grow Locations is the one with the bass, which just gives the whole album a vibe and helps bring those one liners to life and that whole low key party vibe. Yep, I think that’s true. You got me thinking too about you know what if Island And when you pointed out Mitch was thirty seven, You’re trying to picture fifty seven year old Mitch Hedberg, you know, have the same hairstyle. It’s like when you try and picture eighty year old John Lennon and if you know, maybe looking more like Larry David. It’s just it’s so hard.
These people get fixed in your mind at a certain age. It’s true. I mean, what’s interesting right is and I don’t think I would get too much argument about this. His is the kind of comedy that doesn’t age in the sense that if you didn’t like it in nineteen ninety eight, you’re still not gonna like it. If you did like it, it still works now.
It doesn’t need a lot of context. It’s often based on logic. It’s based on playing with language, on the slipperiness of language. Often when people like every once in a while, I’ll have somebody say like, oh, I have like a teenager’s getting into comedy. What would you suggest in the list of people who I say, it’s Mitch Heberg.
Now, granted, maybe he’d evolve and he would become you know, he’d be talking about topical stuff, or maybe he would move in a personal direction or something. But my suspicion as he wouldn’t. We’ll never know. I’m hearing the base in my head and somebody going, I got aheaded to a single. Chat exactly exactly the amazing.
I think one thing about Mitch that during the soul searching this week that has revealed itself is he’s one comedian that appeals to all the camps, you know, the comedy seller people, the brick wall smoking cigarettes people, the la al d people, the blue collar guys. I think everybody liked and respected Mitch’s comedy. Well, okay, let’s I’m push back in that. So please please, I love this discussion. Go yes, I think you’re right.
But that’s in part because he died in two thousand and five before not just comedy but the world fragmented. Would everyone still love him so much if he was still around and he was, you know, toring either taking a side in these various culture war battles that we all know of. You know, I don’t know. I think what’s significant about him is that he’s at the head of an entire family tree of comedy that is incredibly legible to us today but wasn’t not that long ago. And you know, it’s taking a Taro, it’s Sheng Wang, it’s Todd Berry, it’s even Hannibal, It’smitri Martin, this kind of dead pen one liner surrealists like, Now, that’s the type of comedy.
It’s yes, he hung out with people as diverse as David Tel and Todd Berry. I think it deserves some credit. He has his work, and Mitch has shared some. Qualities, but I really think he helped invent a branch of esthetic comedy. And there’s still people who now are coming up who are like, Okay, that’s a legitimate I don’t need to be weird la clown or New York club comic.
There’s this other option, and if you’re good at it, people will respect you. And that’s true. I think that gets overlooked in a lot of the culture war stuff, is that people there’s club comics who think Chris Fleming is great, and there’s alt comics who think Bill Burr is incredible if you’re really good in fact, to be honest with you, not that this matters that much, but like I find that the alt people are easier to give up praise for someone who’s totally different than them in the club, same for the club people, because it’s less there’s less competitive, right. It’s the advantage of doing what we do is that we don’t really have a dog in one of the fights. We can actually call us balls and strikes more with more fairness in my opinion.
But so I think, you know, in the reason Mitch to take it full circle, the reason Mitch is sort of a safe harbor to praise is because he’s on the other side of life where I think he both seems very modern, but he never got on the you know, he never became joined the social media madness that was to come. So in the age of AI, there’s a YouTube page almost Beatle songs. The other day they released this George Harrison thing that they brought to life, pulling stems from different things. Absolutely incredible. So we’ve got enough audio of Mitch, and I know for a fact there at least was a notebook of Hedberg’s material that he never got to perform.
Lynn Shawcroft showed me the notebook. I saw it, if I’m remembering correctly, and you know, I don’t want to go all Brian Williams here, but I think at Sirius we did a special where some comedians performed some of those jokes one time. I think that happened. But anyway, the notebook exists and we have AI. Would you want to hear Ai Hedburg deliver those or.
No, oh boy, this is a George Carlin estate. Would not be for this, That’s for sure, that’s true. That’s I got to say. I’m not. But it’s his material.
So the Carlon Flink wasn’t Carlin’s material. This is Hegberg’s material. So I’ll give you an example on Netflix, the Churchhill documentary. I thought was amazing because they used Churchill’s books and had Ai Churchhill voice it, and I thought it really worked well. You still have the issue of timing performing the words of Mitch Hebburg is that the devil.
It’s a great question, and we’re really struggling with these issues, and it turns out that there’s so much more AI in our culture that we consume that we think it is. We found this out with the Academy Awards recently. It turns out the Bob Dylan movies got AI, and they all got in the idea of taking these regis stands of that AI is sort of moot. But I guess if we’re to take Mike Kaplan’s point, his jokes are like songs, I think I’d be fine for it as long as it’s labeled as such, and so it’s like a little bit like covers, and why not listen to it. I do think that there is a human element to delivery and to pace and to how he would that.
I’m open to AI having a positive impact on culture, but I’m more on the skeptical side among friends when we talk about this stuff. I have friends who are slowly using AI in ways that are not necessary but make their work a little bit easier. I’m a hardliner except where there are the few exceptions. But I feel like, unless you really need to use it, slippery slope. And I think the question would be who’s putting it together?
When it’s Paul mccurtney saying I think John might have done this, George might have done that. That’s one thing. If it’s some rando, that’s a whole other thing entirely. Last question on Hegberg that I want to ask you about a few other things is do you think he is more popular than he was ten years ago? I’m not talking about twenty years ago.
I feel like ten years ago he was in the zeitgeisten on the internet, and maybe we had better Twitter back then than we have now. I feel like he is starting to become a comedian of the past. A name that keeps popping to my mind this week is Richard Jenny, who was huge and nobody ever, ever, ever says the words Richard and Jenny in a sentence anymore. Are we starting to get away from Hebburg or is there more of a legacy here? I think you have a good point that Twitter helped him, because he really was perfect for Twitter.
But Twitter now is sort of a ghost town for comedy at least, so maybe he’s plateaued. But I don’t think he’s not like Richard Jenny. As I said, this Mike Kaplan thing was just like a week ago, and I think Matt Ruby had something on a substack about so he’s still cited and talked about the analog and I’m working on a piece right now. But Andy Coller is a quick thing on Andy Kaufman, and I don’t know what you think Andy Kaufman. I think Andy Coffin’s bigger now than he ever has been.
The Man on the Moon movie surely helped him. There was that renaissance there. I think the Kaufman Awards definitely helped when that was. That’s a little more visible than it is now, you know, I remember the earlier as Kristin Shawl for example, being one of the winners of that. But yeah, the Kaufman doc coming back.
Depending on what Bob’s Muda was doing on any particular day, there’d be a lot of Andy or no Andy at all. But I feel like Kaufman’s got a legacy. Sure, I think this Kaufman doc is very good, and I think you could point to figures like Sasha Baron Cohen, Nathan Fielder, the whole sort of trolling aesthetic, the sort of blurring of lines between real and fake. It feels like Andy Kaufman really anticipated a lot of what’s in the culture now in a way that gets him talked about, which was first of all, I think that Stephen Wright did get there before Mitch, which is relevant. I remember asking that Stephen right about Edburg and he wasn’t very expansive, but he did say something like, it’s nice that I was influencer.
You know, he made it clear that he was there before, and he’s not wrong. He’s not wrong. So yeah, maybe his legacy is not as fixed, but I still think he’s in the cannon. Anytime I look at a top ex comedians of whatever time period, you know, he’s clearly up there. We could spend a year debating what such a list would look like, but he’s definitely way up there.
Yeah, for sure. I would take a quick break, come back, and I want to talk to Jason about some other things. So I believe you were the Conan Marktwain Awards. Like I was a snuck in was the room. They didn’t give me a ticket, so I had to go as a plus one.
They rejected my offer for a ticket. I don’t know, it’s crazy. I thought it was a little crazy. Sorry, my brain just fried. It’s not like you’re some dude in a basement doing some dopey podcast.
It’s the New York Times. Well, they actually gave me this is probably two inside baseball to care about. But they actually gave it to a reporter from the Times, and they said they couldn’t give it to me because of they gave it to her, but they gave her two tickets, so we were like, all right, I’ll just go with her. All right, that’s good. So it turned out to be fine.
No one gave me any hassle where they were actually like, no yonder pouches. They couldn’t have been friendlier. It’s funny to bring up the under pouches because I haven’t seen really anything leak. But I guess it was a professional crowd right industry and the New York Times. You guys aren’t going to start bootlegging things on your phones.
They could have. It was actually I think it was mostly Kennedy Center people and subscribers, but the whole comedy industry was there. I mean, it was actually a great show. I gotta say it was. I’ll be really interested to see what they cut out.
But you know, Conan, for one thing inspires a lot of love and loyalty, and then people brought their a game. So it was probably the best comedy lineup I’d seen this year, and it was tight. I mean, I don’t know what they’re going to cut on top of the fact that there’s the whole Trump and politics of it all, but there. Was a lot of comedy nerds. Jay Leno got hit almost as bad as Trump, and that maybe worse.
There was one point when I think it was Kumeo had this fake ted talk where he pointed out that he had a bunch of people on the. Cover of Time and he had Hitler. Stalin caused me, these are like the covers of Time, and then he had Jay Leno jay Leno cover and I was like, that’s a hard one. But so there was that there was a lot there for comedy nerds to chew on poor Jay. I mean there was a time circa nineteen eighty two eighty three He’s coming out in a leather jacket and he was fairly edgy, and a frequent letterman guest that Jay is long gone, at least in the eyes of his peers.
It’s true. I am to be fair. Conan did not say a word about him, but I think his friends knew that he would enjoy going back over some of those late night worse from another period. It’s crazy that post late night talk show where at Pete Conan the Oscar is obviously a great look for him the podcast, but he’s more popular than ever and he’s not on late night. It’s an increase.
He’s that an incredible year. I feel it’s funny I did a big profile of him before this. I feel my timing was very good. I was lucky because then he got the oscars in the Twain and I felt like he’s he is having this moment, and I thought he really rose to the occasion. His speech was, you know, he had this tough call because he’s not a political comedian.
In fact, he told me he thinks Trump’s bad for comedy. Doing Trump jokes is not his instinct. That comedy is not going to make social change. If anything, he will have a backlash. And yet he’s put in this situation.
The Kennedy Center is now in an unprecedented move. The President has made himself the chairman of the Kennedy Center and gotten rid of the Democrats on the board. Seems sort of apolitical. Is now early political. Not mentioning it, people boycotting it would itself be a political gesture.
So how do you stay true to your principles? While responding to the moment a very tricky problem that I think he thread beautifully and ultimately made a very political speech, But it was all through this esthetic appreciation of Mark Twain, which. Is consistent with who he is. He is, like, you know, he’s a Harvard nerd, you know, a comedy nerd who really has read Mark Twain and chapter and verse that has opinions on it. And you know, it was an s seats speech but with a real hardcore political core.
And then it ended. I didn’t mention this in my piece, but the funniest bit I think was Will Forte at the end came out as Mark Twain and then roasted all the other previous Mark Twain winners. He said that Adam Sandler can’t read. He said that all and you know written by Conan obviously, or written by Conan and Will and then end it with this kind of really crazy, silly, surreal vignette with all these multiple Mark Twain’s almost like the Slim Shady video. That was a great show.
What a great run for a guy that you know, went from Who’s that? To is this late night show going to make it to Thursday? To being at the top of the game. Now, I’ll switching gears on late night and I’ll go first. We’re recording this on Wednesday, So unless you’ve got a secret time machine, we’ve only seen two episodes of Mulaney.
I think it’s not working. And as somebody who’s been in broadcasting for thirty years, I get what they’re trying to do. I get that they’re trying to do the chaos, but as a producer, they got to put a format on it. It’s too all over the place, and the caller segment has to go. My prejudice is completely in favor of what they’re trying to do, right.
I like chaos, I like experimental, I like original Letterman, I like Chris and it’s I think I like all the riffs. I like the ambition, I like the aims. So I tend to sort of grate in a curve. But then, for instance, if I was to rank the acts at the Conan Mark Twain Award, and there’s some heavy hitters on here, Milany is either one or two. It’s a reminder of how damn good he can be.
He was unbelievable in the show, and you’re like, that reminds you what he does well, and you watch him on that talk show and you’re like, he looks like he’s flailing half the time. So you’re right, the talk show thing isn’t quite working, and you’ve got all this talent. I hope, you know, if I’m honest. The original run of it, I was mixed on it too. I felt like there was a lot of things that didn’t work.
But let me also just defend him for a second and say, there wasn’t a good talk show in history that worked right off the bat Conan took, you know, a year to get his legs. Letterman took a while, So I think we should good give credit to people who are taking ambitious moves and who are messing with the form. And he’s no questions he’s doing that. I’d rather see someone Fay. Look, I’d like to see Magic Johnson or talk show.
It’s like a huge disaster is way more fun than another mediocre conventional talk show. Like the Jerry Lewis Talk Show. You ever watched clips of that one? That’s painful. But I think you’re right.
I think as an executive, you know, I’m sending mullany notes on the equivalent of Wednesday, So maybe maybe let him do five shows before I get in there. I mean, well, one thing I’ll say is that I saw a funny tweet from or the instagram of Chris Chris Gethard, who is again wants this to succeed, and he said something about like you got to get a new mic or something for the or let me help you with the sound design for the call in or something. So even people who are really rooting for this can see that like it could be, it could be a little more polished. Can you help me sort my feelings with Bill Burr? And I don’t even know what I want from you.
I’m not on the soapbox with Bill Burr’s going woke and I used to look at it that’s not at all how I feel. However, maybe Bill is over exposed right now. I didn’t love the special, and now every time I see Bill Burr appeared in the media, I’m kind of making what I call crinkly face and be like, I don’t know if I need a bird time out. I don’t even know what I’m asking you right now, But where are you in the Burr averse? I’ve heard you as I’m a religious listener of this podcast and I’ve heard you.
I’m not on the same page with you, and I would just remind you that there are most people don’t know who Bill Burr is, right, Oh yeah, see, I just heard a piece on him. It was interesting to me how many people is The New York Times I had to like introduce who Bill Burr is and why he’s important and so while on one level, yes, it seems like he’s overexposed, he’s everywhere, but to a lot of people, this is their introduction to him. And I know that you agree that he is great at what he does. And look, I think his stuff on Elon who else is saying that? Johnny?
I mean, who else? How can comedians of all people be quiet about this? Ridiculous? Like, you know, how can they not be tearing this guy to shreds? Right?
Like Bill Burr is actually doing what so many younger comics should be doing. I’m not even talking about Trump. I’m talking about Elon Musk and billionaires, right, like attacking from this kind of blue collar position. Or to watch him on Bill Maher, you know, or watch him on Jimmy Kimmel beither kind of free leagion or as I said, I did a piece on him, which I watched him in rehearsal going out the director. He think he’s being very true to his nature in that he’s not picking me any side, going after whoever’s in front of him.
Is the new Special his best special ever? No, I don’t think it is. I think it’s pretty much like it. But if you like what he does, I think there’s stuff there like. But like, for instance, my parents who have never that was their first special, they thought it was great.
I think you just helped me. You know what happened? The indie band I like is playing stadiums? Yes? Now, are you gonna see any the Ross?
No? I would like to, but I haven’t done anything about it. That often happens with Broadway and me. It took back to the future threat closing down for me to go, oh, we got to go. And my daughter’s a theater kid and knows how to get tickets to things, so I should probably do something about it.
Have you seen it? Is it good? I’m going on Tuesday. I saw a little bit in rehearsal and he is perfectly cast yep, and he can obviously do wonders with the language, and so I can’t wait. I mean, it’s a killer cast.
It’s one of my When I was a kid, it was one of my favorite plays, and so I’m excited to see him do it well. I appreciate you coming on today, as we remember in Mitch Heedberg, and always fun to talk to you about all things comedy, nopun. Great, always great being here. Keep up the good work. Thank you Jason for popping on today.
I’m not this good. I used AI to help me shape some of the words about Hebburg, and the AI nailed it here. Mitch Hedburg used to make us laugh. He still does, but he used it too, all right, See tomorrow